Speaker 1: 0:14

Welcome to another episode of the Sisters in Cash podcast. This podcast is featured by Creatortraffic and Modelserchercom Today as my guest, Stefan Mühlbauer. I think everyone knows him as Mühlbauer.

Speaker 2: 0:40

I hope in the meantime also as Afpal, not only as Mühlbauer, okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 0:46

And Stefan, first things first, you have also a podcast, right.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Yeah, I actually have two, and one is called Masters in Cash. That's why I'm asking.

Speaker 1: 0:59

That's why I'm asking Okay, can you tell us a little bit more about you?

Speaker 2: 1:04

Yeah, sure. So first, thank you very much, jesse, for inviting me. We know each other now exactly 10 years we just figured that out before and I have to say that you have, when you speak English, such a nice charming voice. I mean not that your German voice is not charming, but in English it's really like I'm melting here. Anyway, in other in other of these charming things, but it's true, I'm not bullshitting you with that.

Speaker 2: 1:30

So, yeah, my name is Stefan Mühlbauer. Most of the people, indeed, from the yeah, oh, geez, from the older people in the industry, know me with the name Mühlbauer, especially from the German people, german speaking people, but international. I think in the last two, three years the name Afpal is getting more and more popular. It's my brand for creating educational content for affiliate managers, for business developers and general people in this industry, and I work for Master's in Cash, not to mix up with Sister's in Cash. We are a direct dating advertiser focused in Europe, and this is what I do as my main job, and besides from this, I do this educational stuff. I'm very much looking forward to an interesting hour of talk with you.

Speaker 1: 2:20

Can't wait, honestly, because, as you know, we have always a lot of fun at the conventions and at the shows and at the parties. Stefan, can you tell us just a little bit more about your education program?

Speaker 2: 2:40

So I always had like a passion for being on stage. So when I was, I think, four years old, it was the first time that I was on stage. I had to go to the church, and so it's a little bit different than the things I talk now about. I was not like one of these guys with the candle that is maybe getting abused or something like this, but I was on stage to call God with the telephone and, yeah, the people were like really amazed how natural I was doing that. And then I started to sing in the, in the, in the core, and I started to play the guitar on stage, which was a really big disaster. I started to play theater and when I was like 1820, I became a battle MC. So I was going yeah, so Andy is not the only one in your podcast that can rap or that things he can rap with me. It was the same. I never made it big, but I always enjoyed it.

Speaker 2: 3:35

And when I started in this industry, I was from practically one month in the industry, starting to make moderations and attend panels and all these kinds of things, and this was perfect for 11, 12 years to speak about the stuff that you have to sell. And then I was invited to make a speech in Dubai at the affiliate Grand Slam what is part of Sigma that is happening now in Malta to make a speech. They said you can speak about what you want. And I said I will speak about fetish dating or something like this, and they said dude, this is like a casino crypto focused conference in Dubai. You will not speak about this kind of things. You have to come up with something else.

Speaker 2: 4:21

And I thought the only thing that I know really well at this time is affiliate management and I wanted to make a research about how others are doing affiliate management and so on, and there was literally nothing.

Speaker 2: 4:38

I found in the meantime, like two small channels or something like this my channel is small, but they are even smaller and there is no blogs or something like this about it. So I made the speech and the people were happy that somebody picked up this topic and from this moment on, I made myself a name as the guy that speaks about affiliate management, business development, how to hire and train people in the performance marketing space, and I do in the meantime, I would say, 20 conferences per year with nearly on all of them making a speech about these topics. As you mentioned before, I have two podcasts. One is for masters in cash it is really revolving around the dating industry and the other one is just about affiliate management and business development and, jesse, I hope you have the option to put this link there, but I also published my first book now about affiliate management.

Speaker 1: 5:41

Hello, all topics, you Okay, go Okay.

Speaker 2: 5:48

So I stop here. But there is a book as well. Jesse will ask me a proper question about that.

Speaker 1: 5:53

Thank you so much, okay, okay. So when do you start it with your podcasts?

Speaker 2: 5:59

So the masters in cash one was around three years ago, so it was before AFPA and all this educational content. Yes, the first one was, by the way, lars, most of us know as well. So, yeah, this was the first one and it was incredible helpful. So this, this branding that you can do with podcasts, so with speeches for your company or for yourself, is fantastic.

Speaker 2: 6:29

I know we got a masters in cash. We got quite a few big affiliates, especially from the API world, because there were a few podcasts dedicated to API and they see that we offer this, they see that we value this way of promotion or this way of converting leads in a different way, and they come to us and they say, hey, I saw the podcast. But they even come and say, hey, can I join the podcast as well? I also want to build like that personal brand. So this is how it started with masters in cash. It's around three years ago and there must be now something like, I think now with Tost and it was episode number 17. So I'm not able to get it monthly done. And the API one is now exactly one year old and there are like 19 videos. So there are a little bit more because I upload. There also a lot of speeches that I make and something like this influences that just couldn't themselves for a few minutes and speak about the topic.

Speaker 1: 7:35

So yeah, yeah, I think this is number. This is episode 10 right now. Oh, wow, yeah, but you know it's not so specific for the industry, it's more a little bit mixed. It's about social media, it's with models, with big people of the industry like you. So, yeah, but I also will focus in the future a little bit on social media, because girls love it and I think also the people in the industry have to learn a lot about social media.

Speaker 2: 8:19

Honestly, yeah, and it's easier, definitely for you to get this amount of podcasts film in a short time when you cover different topics, and I think a lot of models are also more keen also they know you to share their knowledge. Yes, with dating, the problem is that, of course, it's a podcast from a dating advertiser, so I cannot invite somebody that is also working for an advertiser and then we said the newsletter about how great this person is or his company is a bit hard, so you have to either people that are practically in supporting this industry let's say there was Flourin Simurici. He was speaking about tracking solutions. Then you had Thorsten that was speaking about the history of adult online adult. Brett Mitchell about how to make the best hosting solutions for dating.

Speaker 2: 9:15

But affiliates are very hesitating. I think I had so far only five affiliates that were appearing on the podcast, because the rest is they want to keep their methods for themselves. And with the other podcast it's also a bit hard, because you have to have people that are not working in dating because this I cannot do there neither, and they have to speak about how to do proper affiliate management and it's also sharing about a lot of insights about their companies. It's often hard to find the right people to talk to.

Speaker 1: 9:47

For me it's easy.

Speaker 2: 9:49

Yes, there's, by the way, a guy Philip Schöfmann is the name of the dude and he's like you know no, so he's practically in charge of the educational program of the affiliate world. So he's really deep into this, into this content creation and so on, and he wanted I don't know to break the record or so of the most podcasts made. So this guy had for one month or even longer, every day a podcast.

Speaker 1: 10:22

No.

Speaker 2: 10:24

Yeah, he made it. He made it Saturday, sunday. If there would be Christmas, but it's whatever in this period, this guy would have done it. So every day he uploaded like an episode and he had really really big online entrepreneurs there. So it was not that he was not that he was taking some presents from the streets and say, hey, but it was online or he invited online online, but still you have to schedule it.

Speaker 2: 10:51

The other person has to show up. The technique has to work for him. Okay, yes, that the place. The technique has to work for the other person. He needs to send this to editing. He has to prepare his questions. The guy is very eloquent and he knows how to make this kind of things, but this was really impressive. I wrote him something like your nuts and I think after one month or two months he stopped. Now he's only publishing something occasionally, but it was really impressive and I saw a few of these episodes that he made Nice.

Speaker 1: 11:27

Nice, and so you came up before with your book. Explain me more about your book, why you started to write a book.

Speaker 2: 11:39

How it started with this book. The idea for this I got in Dubai, not in Dubai when I was starting this speaking. I was invited there for another show called Kinza, and it was the first time that conference covered all my expensive so flights, hotel. They took very good care of me on this conference. I also sold there some consultancy. It's really like very motivating for me. And I met there a journalist that turned into an affiliate manager.

Speaker 2: 12:15

Oh really, yes, yes, yes, and I think she approached me after the speech and I think the talk with her inspired me to make this, to make this book, and I wanted to write a complete book, something that is printed that I can hand out to people. But this was, in the first attempt, not successful. So I was sitting down and I write this book and it's incredible, exhausting, especially if you never did it before. So you spent like two, three hours and you have like one page because you want to make it nice. And then you calculate it and you know that if you work full time on it, it will take you four or five months. So I put this book a little bit aside.

Speaker 2: 13:08

The last pages I proper wrote for this was in Bangkok, after Bangkok on my vacation and I realized that the biggest problem for the industry is not to have like a book that gives you like a blueprint how to run a program or a network. Yes, that's also important, but the biggest problem is for the people that are starting out in this industry or they want to start out in this industry. So even before creating this content, I was getting like monthly messages from people how can I get a job in your industry? I want to do the same thing.

Speaker 1: 13:50

Why, guys? I think it's really cool industry, but but they are so cool Other industries too and you get a lot of questions about it.

Speaker 2: 14:02

Yeah, but it's not related to adult.

Speaker 1: 14:05

They are not related to adult.

Speaker 2: 14:08

In general, let's say performance marketing, because you have to see it like this my main job, my I cannot call it nine to five because this is not existing in this world, but let's say my main job is Masters in cash. So everything that I do, aside from Masters in cash, cannot even be adult, because there would be like or not dating, because there would be like, a like, a conflict of interest. So all this kind of stuff is completely different. Of course, everybody can buy this book and read this book and learn something from this. But setting up programs, consulting programs, recruitment, all those kind of things that I do as I get cited to pay for my travels, is out of the dating and adult industry and it's a general problem. So I get, in the meantime, two to three CDs per week as well from people that want to change jobs. And why they want to change jobs If they are long in the industry and they are long with their company, they just want to have a change. They got a new manager, they have a change in commission plan, the company goes in a different direction. They just need a different challenge. Everybody has their own reasons that I can totally understand. The people that change when they are just around one year in the industry. They usually change because a lack of support from their company. It's such a busy industry and we are not having enough workers in this industry and there is no common educational standard for this industry. As account managers, business developers, and so not even for media buyers, they make a certification by with Google, but that's it. Or maybe some document from some private school where you pay a few hundred euros, but that's not the same like something that is like internationally recognized and accepted. So I wrote this book to give it to everybody that starts in the industry, first to learn the basics about it, to learn where they can find a job, how to pass the interview and also how to get trained there. So there is even a chapter how you should approach your team lead to train you for this job, and also a team lead that is buying this book can give this book to an affiliate manager that just starts and this person, when they apply what is written in this book in three months, everything they need to learn, even if they are on their own.

Speaker 2: 16:54

I do this job since 14 years. I trained I don't know the exact number, but I would say, where I had my fingers in some way involved, it must be around 200 account managers. Wow, and it's always the same problem. It's always the same questions, the same issues. No matter where they affiliate, is active, in what vertical, it's always a very similar approach to work with them and some stuff is common sense and the people are doing it wrong because nobody is telling them.

Speaker 2: 17:29

And, for example, it was two days ago I think, I got a message from some woman I don't know. Hello, how are you? And I check her out and I see that she's like an affiliate manager, so she wants my traffic. If she would have looked into it, she would see that I don't have that for her, but appreciate the hustle. So and I told her, like, look, no good business ever started with this question Hello, how are you? You have to tell me directly what is your purpose, because otherwise you just waste the time of me and of you as well. And she says I don't agree, a lot of people want to chit chat and she just started in this job. So I sent her my book I mean, I sent her the link to buy it, not for free and I said read this, because you are wrong with that If you know the people and this industry is really fast.

Speaker 1: 18:27

And no one and no one have time.

Speaker 2: 18:30

No one have time and it's not honest. She's asking me how are you? In Romania they change now the tax law. It's stressing me. She wants to hear from me half an hour why the tax law is stressing me. Know that she should tell me like look, I have this and this traffic. We work on this and this model I even made like templates for people that started they can take and they just have to replace it.

Speaker 1: 18:53

Really, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:54

Instead of just in cash. We make dating. They have to say hey, I'm Chessie from Fencecentro and I'm a managing model center, can we cooperate here? Or something like this. So this is like very basic things or behavior on conferences. When I started in this industry, I should have been fired in the first two years many times because I was so misbehaving because nobody told me yes, some yeah, of course. Look, if you start fired. I was not getting fired, but I should have been.

Speaker 1: 19:34

Yeah, okay, okay.

Speaker 2: 19:35

So the point is, when you start a job in this industry and this is an adult, most probably even more than in mainstream, but mainstream is not far away from that you come from a small town God knows where and now, out of a sudden, you fly to one of the craziest city in the world. There are thousands of people that are young, that are successful, everybody is dressing up, everybody is cool, everybody is fancy, everybody is your what's up dude and he's left and right. So it's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. I was just overwhelmed.

Speaker 2: 20:14

I could not understand the situation. Yet. Hey, this is business. It felt like a gigantic party. There were girls that were like so hot that I have not seen them before and they speak with me in Nuremberg, where I'm from. I was maybe seeing them Google dancing and that's it. And they they are like talkative and whatever.

Speaker 2: 20:39

And the alcohol you had to pay before yourself. If you had luck, somebody was buying you a beer or the beer was like 50% off, and now you are somewhere where you get champagne for free all night. So, and this is where people are going going crazy, and I see that often that people that go to the conferences for the first time, they are totally misbehaving A lot of them. They also cover their fear and their insecurity behind arrogance. And this book covers it all how to find affiliates, how to maintain them, how to restart all the affiliates, how to behave on the conferences, how to be trained on the job. I even made a chapter about how to manage your money, because, let's say, you were working for like 1000 euros and out of a sudden you have a very good affiliate and you make 10 or 20k. You go maybe also crazy in your private life. So take a bit from this aside and put it somewhere, because it's online marketing. What is making today? Money is stopped tomorrow.

Speaker 1: 21:45

Yes, it's like this but I love your topics in the book. I need also one book of this.

Speaker 2: 22:00

Yeah, 5% discount.

Speaker 1: 22:05

I would say you have to send me the link. Stefan, you was at a lot of conferences this year, right?

Speaker 2: 22:15

Yeah, I think. In my life I made more than 200 conferences and this year it must be around 20. I mean within one year, not only this year.

Speaker 1: 22:27

What do you think about? What was your most successful conference in the last time? What do you think was the best show?

Speaker 2: 22:39

For me it was the Sigma Malta show.

Speaker 1: 22:42

Really.

Speaker 2: 22:43

Yeah, but this is because it's practically adult and dating free and it's casino and there is a lot of money and I did a lot of speeches in the casino space. So I have some kind of reputation and when I'm there I always make some consultancy. I have also something like a small Potee KHR company not with a big effort, but people sending me the CVs. I walk around with open ears. Somebody says, hey, do you know somebody to hire? I connect them, charge a small fee. So this is for me in the casino space definitely the most lucrative one for my personal things.

Speaker 2: 23:28

For Masters in Cash it's always the European Summit in Prague, so I have to say in this year was also like a little bit of a special case. Additionally, the affiliate the AW summit in Bucharest. They practically hired Juliana, william and me for consulting them to make it a little bit more appealing from affiliates. So that was, of course, also a very, very successful show for me personally, but also for Masters in Cash, because every affiliate that wanted to have a free ticket had to go practically through my hands.

Speaker 2: 24:10

So I had directly contact with 200 affiliates and I could pick out the guys that are relevant for me to talk to as well, so that was super cool. I also made also some podcasts with the people that I met in this way.

Speaker 1: 24:31

There was Bucharest was amazing, People were amazing.

Speaker 2: 24:34

It was fantastic. But then there are shows that are having on me like a very crazy influence as well, that are maybe not even that big and relevant on the first few. For example, I went to Greece to a very small iGaming conference and there I was sent the first time from a company to speak in their name. So it was a casino, a smart link company. The name is Maxlev and they were sending me there to speak in their name. So I presented a case study we work a little bit together on small things and I helped them to improve certain things and I spoke about how an affiliate was scaled from them from 2,000 euros payout per month to 70,000 euros payout per month 17.

Speaker 2: 25:29

70, 0, 0, 0.

Speaker 1: 25:31

Yeah, ok, I hear it right.

Speaker 2: 25:33

Yeah, so, but this is for an affiliate, not even that crazy number, but the crazy thing is all the effort that was put into this affiliate and this I presented there. So it's for me like a very important experience that I go to a conference and somebody takes me as a tool to represent their company and also, for example, now in Milano. It was absolutely fantastic to present in my book.

Speaker 1: 26:04

Yeah, I think you are. You are now the face of affiliate, I think.

Speaker 2: 26:09

Of affiliate managers, it should be in business developers, and also in Milano I could present my book, and I think there are like five or six companies that are now in discussion about taking some little outage from me, and it's completely different verticals, and I live here in a small town. I have not too much to do At the moment. I also have to deal with two herniated discs in my back, so I cannot even do the sport as I want, so I would either sit at home and watch Netflix or I use the hours that I have to do my side hustles. And also people are asking me like yeah, ok, you were this year for a Masters in Cash at five shows and you were in 15 as a file.

Speaker 2: 26:59

Yeah, that's true, but if I go on a conference, it's not that I'm saying like I'm Steph Amruba, I'm Afpal and the rest I hide. I say where I work mainly for and on every conference. I think the one in Greece was now the first time I went to a conference where there was really nothing about dating. But even Sigma Malta, even Sigma Cyprus I always have a handful of meetings there because there are traffic networks, and what traffic networks are? Affiliates and affiliate networks that have multiple verticals that are matching exactly what we are doing so.

Speaker 2: 27:37

It's, for the company, a very lucrative thing as well of what I'm doing there, and people want to make more content themselves, to generate like a branding. I mean, I have quite a few requests from people that come to my podcast and they want to be there, or even one asked for help how to make the first panel, and this is very cool to see how the people want to go that way. But some also have to accept that they are maybe not made for this and they should not force it.

Speaker 1: 28:19

For me it's also at the shows. Yeah, because I'm there for the shows for Fans Central, but of course I'm also a model, not for AdWords anymore, but more mainstream. But also you have to always have in your head the podcast, so it's always a little bit. Sometimes it's a struggle to have all together, because at the shows everything is fast. You don't have time, you are working every hour, so it's yeah, and there are a lot of information. You have to meet a lot of people, not only models. In my case, you have to do a lot of networking with other people.

Speaker 1: 29:12

So not only models, and yeah, sometimes it's a little bit overwhelming, because there are a lot of doors you can walk in and you don't know what you have to do.

Speaker 2: 29:25

The first Filming a podcast on a conference is very stressful. I remember the second or third podcast I made for AFPA was on the Affiliate World Asia and it was with a click dealer about how to make an affiliate event. So they make a lot of I don't know like competitions or so, where they invite their best affiliates and always crazy parties. And we didn't have any location to go to to speak so we made it in some corner at the Affiliate World.

Speaker 2: 30:01

No, and yeah, and I put there like a tripod and I bought microphones for each of us. The problem was this was in front of a toilet. It was the only quiet place and in the video goes like I think 15 minutes and then this time, 304 people. You hear them walking going to the toilet. Ok, you don't hear it flashing, but it's super annoying. So if you don't have like a hotel room, the company has like a big booth where you can go. It's very hard.

Speaker 2: 30:30

The first AFPA one I made in Sigma Malta with Pina partners and they had like the biggest booth. It was over two stories. The guy who just kicked out all these people that were there making coffee break or whatever on the top floor and we had them there like a quiet place to speak and some of them for example, with Daniel Schiemann that you know for sure as well, I made one of Blackhead social media for Masters in Cash, also in Malta. But there was the situation that we were staying in the show hotel and we just made it in this room and I know that I forgot my giveaway back there and there is like swimsuits that I need. I have to write into giving my swimsuits.

Speaker 1: 31:19

And I think also I can learn a lot from you. So also we have to talk after the podcast too. So let's talk. Do you know also something about social media a little bit?

Speaker 2: 31:37

I think I know more that I practically do. I come practically from a social media household as the mother of my child, christina. A lot of people here know her in the meantime as well, it's like something like I saw her in a panel.

Speaker 2: 31:53

So yeah, so she's like, she's like a professional influencer in Romania and it's going really well for her. So I see what she's doing. I see also the work that she has to put into it. She has some clients from me, programs that outsource their social media towards her, and I see it, but I'm definitely not an expert. And if you look at my Instagram, if you look at my TikTok, my YouTube channel, it's from the content I've been saying Do you have TikTok also?

Speaker 2: 32:24

Yeah, but Jesus Christ. And if you look at the stuff, okay. Tiktok. That's trash. I don't understand it. I'm 41. I don't know. I'm not like millennial.

Speaker 1: 32:35

Actually, I'm still a millennial but she's really good in TikTok right.

Speaker 2: 32:41

Oh, I mean imagine this. She lives in Romania. It's a country with, I think, 19 million people Plus, let's say, 5 million outside of Romania that speak the language as their main language as well, and she has on some of their videos she has over 3 million views. It's all in Romanian. That means that 20% or 18% of the population in Romania that includes people that don't even have a phone, people that are just two years old, people that are old, people that don't have TikTok have seen this video, and then she has like thousands of videos.

Speaker 2: 33:23

It's crazy, but for me, my content is for sure from the content, what I say or what my guests say. That's way better what my guests say, because I invite all these experts Like you are inviting a lot of people and you learn from them. I learn from them as well and I put stuff in my book and in my work and I share their stuff. It's very valuable, but how it's made it's very amateurish. Look, you have this nice microphone. It looks like Erzbodezra from Star Trek. I bought a ring light. I bought a ring light. I filmed this now with the computer. I bought an iPhone to film, at least when I travel, a little bit better, but this is far away from the standard. The video editing is done by some homies that I give sometimes some money. Sometimes they don't get it. It's not there where it should be. But next year I will travel way less. I realized that for the first after Thailand, there will be three months no travel for me. This is where I want to put a bigger effort into making my online presence.

Speaker 1: 34:35

Really, really.

Speaker 2: 34:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:37

Can't wait for it. What are your plans?

Speaker 2: 34:42

What are my plans? So first is to buy everything professional, like I also want to have an Erzbodezra microphone, the ring light I already have. I have to see with the camera what to do if I use the iPhone or if I use something else.

Speaker 1: 34:56

I can help you with everything. I have a lot of webcams. I was trying a lot. I was trying also a lot for YouTube. I can help you, no problem.

Speaker 2: 35:04

So all this kind of stuff and to find reliable editor that is making my style.

Speaker 2: 35:12

For example, for the book I was not cheap.

Speaker 2: 35:17

I hired a brand director, creative director, so my designs for the book are not done and also the layout by like a normal graphic designer that did what I told them.

Speaker 2: 35:29

It was really made by somebody that works usually with Adidas and it's like a friend of mine and he has like a startup and this startup will take some more time until he gets the funding for the next round, so he's like pivoting in between and he just gave me this opportunity that he does it. It was, of course, a little bit more expensive than a normal designer, but I didn't have to put the creative work meter because he did all the things. I just give him like, hey, on the book it's to be this, this, this, some color orientation you'll find on my homepage, and he does it. If I would have sit down myself, this would have taken me two, three hours to just think about it, and this time is already the money saved to make it. So if somebody wants to write a book on, it's like some really good creative work, I can introduce it to this guy until he's like fully loaded with this startup. We'll take a little bit longer.

Speaker 1: 36:30

Okay, stefan, so you was in Berlin last time.

Speaker 2: 36:35

Mm-hmm Venus.

Speaker 1: 36:38

Yes, so I Fantastic, that was my question. There was a lot of, so I think there was also US companies this year, right? Do you think the Venus changed a lot this year?

Speaker 2: 36:54

Yeah, I mean, I was on the Venus, I think four or five years. Okay, there was also COVID in between, but I had other things to do and I realized one thing the users are behaving better. This is what I realized. Before. They were, like, extremely vulgar and you had to practically fight them. I had a boost in 2011 and I had to push the people back. Now they have a lot of securities there, really, yeah. So the people maybe think twice before they do something, but it looks like they are more friendly. I was speaking to a woman that I know, that I actually spoke with you about before the island cooker that is 63 and started to trip on.

Speaker 1: 37:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:49

And I spoke with her and then was coming this young user and he's standing there like 10 minutes and then he in the rapsk against him Excuse me, can you sign my t-shirt? And she's like I give you even a kiss with my lipstick on it, coming here, and so they are like very polite. When I think about the generation 11 years ago, when I was there 12 years ago, really like rude. They were coming like can I put my finger up your ass for the picture? Or something like this. And on the other hand, I have to say that the shows are getting more and more crazy.

Speaker 1: 38:30

I see this also with this podcast, is family friendly.

Speaker 2: 38:34

This podcast is family friendly. Okay, yeah, let's say it like this. And I see it also in dating how niches are also for us booming a lot and I see also the trends how other advertisers are jumping on these niches more and more.

Speaker 1: 38:51

What's the most successful trend right now?

Speaker 2: 38:55

For us she-mail? Okay, for us it's she-mail. And the point is that the people that are consuming or that are joining she-mail dating sites they don't want to have her say the experience to meet a she-mail. Look, we have these pages translated fully, localized in Hungary and Poland, in Slovenia, in Croatia. Imagine you go to a dating site and you meet a she-mail in Hungary and you go on a coffee date or something like this with a she-mail in Hungary. They beat you. It's not Berlin, where everybody is cheering for the woke culture. In Budapest it's maybe a little bit different, but also in Germany, on the countryside, it's possible that you will get your ass kicked. So the people don't even want to have that. The people want to have this fantasy. It's the same with all these bukkake porn and gangbang porn.

Speaker 1: 39:57

They care what's the word P-O-R-N.

Speaker 2: 40:01

Yeah, so okay, I will not say that, but they are consuming this and they are like super horny about all these things. But if you would take them and say like here, I invite you, here is John Thompson, or whoever filming, you can join now 95% of the people would say like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I only want to consume it.

Speaker 2: 40:21

And this is there, I think, very typically, and it's extremely successful for us and I know it's extremely successful also for others, and the people want more and more and more. It's family friendly, so I cannot go too deep into this, but when I remember the Venus shows that we had before, with the things that I see now, there there was stuff that was making me, after 14 years, shake the head. There was really, I mean, one thing I can tell. Now. I will not tell everything because I want to follow your guidelines, but this I can describe. Now there was like this dominatrix with her slave on the stage and the guy had to make like this with his arm and she was putting some alcohol on the arm, rubbing the arm, and then she was taking this stance fire, I don't know this wonder light. You know this.

Speaker 1: 41:18

It's like a metal and there is something like powder and you light it and it makes the spark.

Speaker 2: 41:25

So she was putting two of these things, so they were sticking in his arms, and then she lights it and his entire arm is like like sparkling.

Speaker 1: 41:34

That's my vibe.

Speaker 2: 41:37

That's your vibe. Yeah, that's how you wrote. So this is, this is this is the things that are happening now on the Venus and when I was there in all the years before yes, there was crazy stuff too, but it was not on the level that it is now.

Speaker 1: 41:53

Okay, okay, I will take it like this yeah. So we can, we can, we shouldn't, can't wait for next year. Let's see what will happen there. Oh yeah, but Brasers was there and I did some people for one picture that was standing there for two hours, two hours.

Speaker 2: 42:19

I was surprising. There was. I think the last time I was on the Venus or one of the last times there was this redhead girl, lexi rocks. Is this possible, lexi rocks? The people were, I think, even standing longer. They were standing from the booth. We said so my dirty hobby over ever, she was. They were lining up out of the hall. I mean, it was still the green.

Speaker 2: 42:44

They were passing the hot dog cart and the booth from. I stay a, and so I'm just to line up for a for a picture there. I would not even do that if, if Michael Jackson would be there.

Speaker 1: 42:57

I know, I know. So, Stefan. Another point Do you think that our industry changed it a little bit more into mainstream?

Speaker 2: 43:10

Yeah, the approach definitely. Look back in the days when I started, everything was not everything, but the majority of traffic was run by this, let's say, local people that had small CEO pages. This is how it started. Nowadays, a lot of the traffic is controlled by the cis countries, so it's generated there over big sites, over blackhead methods and so on, and then it's sold from sales managers that are understanding both worlds to the pro, to the, to the advertisers and to the affiliates. And this is like a total different approach and just a business and not like before that were like webmasters that were setting up their blocks and often covering their, their own little, their own little fetish. You see it when you go to the conferences and you see all this account managers and everybody that has traffic. The traffic is not provided by the person anymore that has this small website. The person is provided by a media buyer or a network that has a media buyer.

Speaker 2: 44:18

That is buying it from somebody that is generated. This as an industry, and everything that is an industry, is professional and not like a little little passion anymore. I don't know what I should think about this development. In one way, I like it. I like to have a professionalism here, but on the other hand, it's also not loyal anymore. When I look at masters in cash the guys that are buying traffic they say like, oh, yesterday the competitor made like five cents more per click. I switch it off. Or can you pay more with the guys that have to see your pages? They are just plugging it in. It's running one time per month. And they say last month we made more, is there a problem? And you look into it and say like, nah, general, this market was not good that month, but traditionally, next month will be good. Okay, okay, okay. And that somebody from the CEO pages kicks you out is practically not happening. It's very rare because they wrote articles about you with banners. It's a different story. But even this banner stay off, not monetizing anymore themselves. They are putting their script from an ad network and they sell the little bit of traffic that they are still having in high quality Somewhere else.

Speaker 2: 45:39

One of the podcasts that I learned the most from was a masters in cash podcast with Jose from Exoclick and he explained a bit how you can make the most money with Exoclick. This is not when you go and you buy the big, expensive spots. You need that to scale. If you make volume, you need that. But the highest return of invest you make when you buy their house, how it's called raw traffic or Ront traffic. This means this are all the affiliates that are like very small and just started Exoclick and they sell their traffic Somewhere. You don't even know what project. That is nothing and this traffic is like really fresh.

Speaker 2: 46:21

You just have to find it because, yeah, because all the bullshit is flying around there as well, and if you have luck and you find something like this, you can make hundreds of percent profit, because these small CEO pages and these small affiliate pages always work better than the big ones Always.

Speaker 1: 46:43

I understand. I understand what do you think, because you know everything about traffic. What is, for you, the most successful social media platform to bring traffic? Is it TikTok, is it Twitter? Is it Instagram? What do you think?

Speaker 2: 47:03

Well, I mean, for us it's still Facebook.

Speaker 1: 47:07

Really.

Speaker 2: 47:08

Yeah, but it's because the older generation is on Facebook and in dating, the older the user is, the more successful it's usually. But I know, for example, other players on the market that shifted already one year ago their main focus on TikTok. For me personally, it's Facebook.

Speaker 1: 47:31

Instagram also have a new function. So in the future, so if you go viral, your wheels will be also shared automatically on Facebook and if this happens, oh my God, I had my last. Really, I think got nearly 2,000K signs one week and it was, I think, 70 or 80,000 saw it right now on Facebook and it's amazing.

Speaker 2: 48:02

And how do you monetize?

Speaker 1: 48:03

it. I see it on my pages. I'm not so active model like that. I track everything. Yes, of course I have my tracking links, but honestly I don't like to burn my Instagram, so I don't promote a lot of my pages there. I just do it a little bit like undercover because I'm working in sales and marketing.

Speaker 2: 48:31

But are you getting paid by Instagram and Facebook for this already?

Speaker 1: 48:36

So, yes, I have also a sub on Instagram right now, but I think to you know how we girls monetize it on Facebook, on Instagram, and Facebook. So yeah, for me it's just a little bit fun. I was trying the subs on Instagram and I hadn't, one day, I think, free subs or something. I wasn't okay. Now I have to bring content. What can I do now for my subs on Instagram?

Speaker 2: 49:06

You cannot upload sisters in cash right.

Speaker 1: 49:12

Yeah, I. Okay, I will tell you now a little bit about my plans because you know I'm really focused in fitness and mainstream and I have so much fun to talk with people about their life and maybe I will start also another podcast just for mainstream, with big stars to do it really, really mainstream out of their life. You know, from fitness, from from our industry, from I don't know people out of the real life, big people, big influencers, something like this, because this brings also a lot of traffic. Maybe I will use my big account for this because, honestly, I was starting.

Speaker 1: 49:53

I was growing a lot when I do my, when I was doing my content at Instagram. So then I changed it to fitness and I never grow again for two years. It was horrible. Then I started yeah, I know, because it's another niche. Yeah, I know, we know, we know it. But then I started now I think three weeks ago, no, four weeks ago to create it, just my old content. So, jim TikToks, but at home in my kitchen and boom, my Instagram is growing again. My views are growing again. It was great.

Speaker 1: 50:33

And it's so hard for me to find the middle way. You know, to do what I love and don't do everything in the bikini.

Speaker 2: 50:42

You still have something that is like a mainstream thing, that is like approachable and that you can get easier viral. I know that none of the content I create will ever go viral. It cannot go viral. My audience in the entire world is maybe 30,000 people. How this can be viral If, let's say, 50% of the people that are relevant to this are watching it? It's still not viral. I know I mean Christina says to me like yo, dude, you are like like an entertaining outgoing person and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You should make also something like like this, like, for example, the German in Romania and all the things that I'm observing here. For example, there are big differences between the Germans and the Romanians already at the airport. It's a rule that when you fly, you have to stop in front of the plane and you have to make a selfie Rule in Romania.

Speaker 1: 51:41

It's a rule.

Speaker 2: 51:42

Yeah, it's a rule that when you, when you have prior, when you don't have priority boarding, that you go with the priority boarding and then you have to line up on the other line again. So all this kind of all this kind of stuff that I'm seeing here, it's still this. When they land, they clap like crazy. So all this kind of stuff. She said, like, make content like this, because this is stuff that can go viral. There are these people that are coming from UK or Australia and they make jokes about the German and you look at it and it's, of course, like exaggeration, but the guy is, of course, not making stuff that he just invented. It's really like this that we are crazy about making the recycling in Germany, that we were the socks with the sundials, but I have that even now I have socks and sundials here because I'm in my house, so all this kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 52:40

But for me, my content that I make, who in the world should want to see something like business development in the performance marketing space? Or, even more niche, how to hire affiliate managers. You have to own a program or be a team leader that this is interesting for you. But on the other hand, with like 200 views you can already sell a sponsorship. So I have people that are already making paid sponsorships on my channel and then only 150 people are watching this. Now for the affiliate expo. They gave me like a discount code or something like this. I think I sold 10, or not me, they sold it, but with my discount code they sell 10-12 tickets.

Speaker 1: 53:25

You are special, you know.

Speaker 2: 53:27

This is now a good or a bad thing.

Speaker 1: 53:33

You were spilling a lot in the past. You also was spilling your own brand.

Speaker 2: 53:40

But it's now one year that I really plan it. Before it was just like going with the flow, but now it's really like becoming a business and I make the trebles also to build my own brand. And, for example, now I will also go to Thailand. What I will do there? I will record podcasts and I will moderate the entire TikTok meetup.

Speaker 1: 54:04

I love it. I was also in the TikTok meetup too.

Speaker 2: 54:09

It's again something to make like brand building, I think the biggest one that they are doing.

Speaker 1: 54:14

That was what I mean. So also the TikTok meetup. I really, really love it. So it's much more mainstream now in our industry and these are things. They are so cool because before we don't have something like this, you know Also now other platforms are coming up, like modelsearchercom.

Speaker 2: 54:36

Yeah, yeah, name the sponsors, Name them, name them Also. Creator. Today you said it before.

Speaker 1: 54:43

No, I focus now on modelsearchercom because I'm really good into social media, because as an influencer, and I'm really successful at Twitter and on Instagram. You have a lot more experience than other people. You know Because you was doing, I was doing. You know why I know so much about TikTok because I was trying a lot. I was watching every day YouTube about the new trends and TikTok, twitter, instagram and I was growing with it. So my models sometimes have really big shadowbound on Instagram and sometimes we clean it. It's fun, it was work, but we clean it also.

Speaker 2: 55:30

How you clean something like this.

Speaker 1: 55:34

So in the past it was like this when you had I think it was one year ago or something we deleted on Instagram the full feed, so we deleted all in the story. Achieve and also my models unfollow other girls for the algorithm, Then they log out, change the password, log out and log in after two or three weeks later so that when you have links in the story, when you tag it, other girls in the story because we lost our big account because we tagged it another girl.

Speaker 1: 56:12

I understand, if you take another girls and they are shadowbound, you get the block too. So on my account I tell my girls sorry, I can't follow you because I was changing my algorithm to fitness so I was unfollowing you. All the girls, also all the big girls. I was just following fitness girls, fitness influencers, real bodybuilders. I was interacting with them, I was managing in my friend list as my true friends and as my close friends. So the algorithm know, ah, she's now focusing on fitness and it works also and also that is so.

Speaker 1: 56:59

In my opinion, all this tagging or sharing from other people can block your account. When the girl just showed too much or she have a lot of bands, you will get it too. So you have to take really care also in DMs with who you are interacting. What kind of words do you use in your DMs? And something like this. Because also, instagram is checking this and if you send links, if you send words, if you send, instagram is checking this. That's why a lot of influencers lost their accounts because they don't realize. Also, if I asked my girls hey, have you read the new toss of Instagram or Twitter? No, we don't do it. So, hey, you have to read it. You have to read the updates that you know what's allowed, what's not allowed.

Speaker 2: 57:54

Okay so. I promise you when you take me that I will not post some new pictures from you. So I do this after one month when the algorithm is not hitting in anymore. Yeah, anyway, now I'm a bit sad because of the hand, yeah, so I will anyway not do that.

Speaker 1: 58:14

Okay, yeah, I think, stefan, I think you don't have time anymore, right?

Speaker 2: 58:23

Check it. No, we can make a little bit more.

Speaker 1: 58:25

We can make something more.

Speaker 2: 58:27

Yeah, we can make 10, 15 minutes more. It's like that. And does you know, with Thomas Gottschalk? He always does a few minutes longer.

Speaker 1: 58:34

Okay, how long you are now in the industry?

Speaker 2: 58:38

It will be in March. 15 years Without any interruption. I never did interrupt it, and even when I did mainstream in parallel with certain projects, I always was working in this industry as well, sometimes more, sometimes less. So, for example, flashlight was like really like Now, what I love that you that you have a lot of ways.

Speaker 1: 59:05

What are you in? What are you into? I love that you do also your side hustles, because not everyone is doing it.

Speaker 2: 59:14

Look, I was doing this kind of stuff practically for free. There are more than 50 people in this industry that I organized a job and, for example, even Lars. I brought Lars to this industry. So and I did this all just to help the company but also to help the person that is looking for a job. And I wanted to continue it like this. And I was in Amsterdam and I had co-pilots with a friend of mine that has a network in Amsterdam and she told me that they charge up to 10 or 15,000 euros for an affiliate manager as a recruitment agency. And I was like what the fuck? What the what? The no shadow band, what the heck? I do this for free and I sent to some agencies, I sent the people and they were not giving me one dime. So I said, when I make now this connections why they should not pay me.

Speaker 1: 1:00:15

Correct and I always think the same.

Speaker 2: 1:00:18

Yeah, and you have to do it, and it was like actually there were like two people that were forming my opinion with this very much. This is Florin, and he even gave me like a book that is exactly about this that you are not like mean or something like this when you charge for your service, especially when you invest.

Speaker 1: 1:00:40

How does this?

Speaker 2: 1:00:41

call it Give and take, I think.

Speaker 1: 1:00:45

I can, I can.

Speaker 2: 1:00:46

Yeah, and it's practically it's placed. It's not a fictional book, but it shares stories, especially from Silicon Valley, so it's even related to our industry and it's like how people are networking there and what they do for free and for what they are charging. And this was changing my mind and the one that was really pushing me to finally charge for it. Then, in the end, was was William, because I love him with his glasses.

Speaker 1: 1:01:17

Yeah, yeah With his glasses.

Speaker 2: 1:01:20

We made even like a workshop now in Prague especially about networking.

Speaker 1: 1:01:24

He's branded of his glasses right.

Speaker 2: 1:01:27

Yes, he is, and he speaks about it, and they were 10 euros in Amazon, just that. You know. He says it on stage that he is the best thing he bought for 10 euros. And they were like encouraging me to, to, to charge for this. And now the people they are picking my brain. They are saying like, yeah, I have made an affiliate program and it's not working.

Speaker 2: 1:01:52

Before I was looking into this and then I stayed there like an evening or so and then we meet on the show and they say thank you for your help. Here you get a beer and that's totally okay, and there are a lot of people that I would still do that for free. So when somebody just starts out, they don't have like money. They were helping me in the past. I would always be able to connect and help and share something. But there are like companies with like dozens of employees and they want to have this advice. And you look into this and you know, if you go over it just for two hours, the program will make most probably 20, 30% more money.

Speaker 2: 1:02:35

And the biggest issues that I see with the programs that I worked with in the past but also now and this is now again about all verticals is the onboarding process. It's like the people sign up, the people cannot even put a Skype or telegram, it's just about emails. So how the affiliate manager should communicate proper with you. Maybe the email is not arriving. Emails are arriving thousands, so the program is not even getting this information. Then you look into the program. You see the program has amazing offers but there is not even a contact form or like the contact details of the affiliate manager. I had some guys that were like signing up 80 affiliates in like one month on a conference or so and they wonder why nobody starts. And you know what was the reason. You will not believe that.

Speaker 1: 1:03:32

There wasn't any contact to contact the contacts.

Speaker 2: 1:03:35

No, they forgot to put a login button. Yeah, so, theoretically, what I'm what I'm, let's say, the biggest fixes that I do is stuff that they would find themselves. If you would go now to master's in cash and look into it. You would also find stuff where you say, like, why they are doing this, and this is maybe because of the history, it's maybe because of workflows, or we know that it's not good, but in some way it is like this. But stuff like this is not not happening there. When you sign up, you get usually within one day. If I'm not traveling, you get contacted on social media, on instant message. Usually. I want to have like a video call with you because it makes it more like personal and it makes it more serious. People are signing up for so many networks and then nothing happens and you put them in the CRM system. They run completely different stuff and so when you have a call on video just five minutes it's also lowering the risk for fraud.

Speaker 2: 1:04:39

A lot and a lot of programs. They are not doing this, they are not doing their absolute basic homework. I make a checklist with 45 points. So every time when somebody says and say like, hey, I have to read it. Yeah, when everybody that says like, hey, can you make a check on my program? I go through this list. I even had like a project manager for a while that was assisting with this kind of stuff and he was going through the most basic points like our terms and conditions and so on, and after this it's like a more detailed approach. But in the beginning it's always like the absolute basics and a lot of people are not doing it proper.

Speaker 2: 1:05:23

To give you also an example from a master's in cash you could sign up and you could sign up for our refshare program and you could sign up for our CPL program. So this was there. When you click on lock it, there was like a splash page. It was saying like sign up. You click Do you want to have refshare here, cpl here two completely different systems. Now you sign up on CPL. After one month you come back to masters in cash and you want to lock in. You look, click on lock in and it's not working. Why it's not working? Because behind the lock in button was only the lock in for refshare. So if the affiliate is not remembering your, your name, contacted you and I'm not reaching out to him Maybe something like this is so confusing yeah but this stuff happens everywhere.

Speaker 2: 1:06:16

So also for us. Nobody looked into this, nobody cared about it, nobody knew it. Maybe, and when I, I realized I was not testing it myself. And then after a while the people are saying to me yeah, I cannot look in, why you cannot look in? Yeah, it says like it's not existing or something. Okay, and I look, can you send me a screenshot? And the lock in looks totally different from refshare than from CPL. So I said you are looking in on the refshare? They say yeah, but this is the. This is. Sometimes. They say it's the refshare. I send them the correct link and it works. But until I figured out that the lock in is only going to refshare.

Speaker 1: 1:06:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's not that there are idiots.

Speaker 2: 1:07:01

I worked there myself and it took us a little bit of a time to find out. Find that out. People are always pitching on business consultants. Yeah, they go in my company and they fire half of the people, or something like this. No, no, no, it's not about this. They approach things in a structural way and they find mistakes. They know that are too logical to happen for the people to work there.

Speaker 1: 1:07:27

I know, I know.

Speaker 2: 1:07:32

Yeah, Okay, Jesse that is what.

Speaker 1: 1:07:34

That is why I have every day one hour calls with with Thorsten.

Speaker 2: 1:07:40

Great guy.

Speaker 1: 1:07:41

It was a lot.

Speaker 2: 1:07:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:44

Yeah, stefan, thank you so much for your time. I have to catch you up also later, because I like to learn a lot from you.

Speaker 2: 1:07:56

That's what the lady said to the visual.

Speaker 1: 1:08:00

Okay, thank you so much. And yeah, do you like to say more?

Speaker 2: 1:08:06

Jesse, just thank you for doing that, and it's great to see people that are hustling and doing podcasts as well, and because I know you how you started as in sales and how shitty your English was and now you make like podcasts and you move on the international show floor like like your boyfriend, like a pro, like a pro. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:08:28

No, but you know I am now at the show signs Nearly 10 years and I learned it also a lot from Thorsten. I learned it also a lot from you and, yeah, there will be come up a lot in the future. So Perfect. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 1:08:47

Have a great day everybody.

Speaker 1: 1:08:49

Yes, bye, bye, bye.